Q&A/Pray. Reflect. Apply. Process

This transcript has been automatically generated

We’re going to start with a Q&A because I’ve been told there are lots of questions, um, and that gives us a bit of time to actually tackle some of those. So just to give you a bit of an overview what we’re going to be doing in this session, we’re going to pray, reflect, apply, whatever the session is called, and we’re going to do that by first having a time to ask Kev some questions, um, and then we’re going to have a few people up front who will help us to kick us off in our applications. We’re going to have 3 big topics that we’ll be talking about in smaller groups. Each time the panel up front is gonna kick us off, just giving us a bit of thought, so they have prepared a little bit, a bit of time to think about it, and they’re gonna help us start the conversation, which you will then continue in your groups. We’ll do that 3 times with 3 different big topics, and then we’ll have some time to pray together, and then we’ll sing, and then we’ll finish.

That is it. Okay, Kev, do you want to come up? Okay, let’s start with— does anyone— has anyone thought of any questions?

Go on, Lydia, start with you. Thank you. Um, my question is, when we see the breaking of the seals and the, you know, releasing of the 4 horsemen of war and famine and death, that was not something— I assume that’s something that’s been going on throughout all of history. So how do we place the sort of releasing of those horsemen at that stage, at that place or stage in time? Do you mean all of history, even before Jesus was enthroned?

Repeat the question. Yes. So, um, some of the things released by the horsemen, uh, have been going on through the whole of history. So why are we saying that those things get kicked off as Jesus, uh, is enthroned? Well, some of them are, some of them are quite specific.

So the 5th seal is about the persecution of Jesus’ people, you know, the church. So that’s specific to our era. And the 6th seal certainly is, as it gets in towards the day of God’s wrath.

It may be— so yes, some of these are general effects of a cursed world.

And have been going on for longer than that. Yeah, that’s right. I think, I think what we can say from here is, well, just because Jesus is on the throne, those things haven’t stopped. Um, they operate under God’s permission and somehow have purposes in the era of the church. But yeah, for sure, some of those are effects of a fallen world generally.

It’s interesting, in the next cycle when you go around and come back to the world as it is, it becomes clearer that those things are actually part of God’s judgement. He gives us over to those things as part of his judgement. But again, that’s something that’s more general to the whole of sinful history, as it were. Yeah, great. There’s a question there, David.

I get it. Sorry, one— I’ve just had enough. My brain’s like really slow. I suppose the only other thing to say on that is some of these are things that the Roman Empire thought that they were dealing with. The Pax Romana, the peace of Rome.

And actually part of having those things there makes it clear, you know, these— Rome can’t save you from these things, only Jesus can. So yeah, I just, um, so from your last sermon, 2, 2, uh, major themes that I took away. One was the sort of cyclical narrative throughout Revelation. The second one was your point that what is happening with the Four Horsemen isn’t some part of the future that we haven’t arrived at, which will be worse than now. It’s actually this span of time we’ve been in.

And I just wanted to know, for both those points, how do you come to that understanding? Is it that scholars Yeah. Is that original? Because both of those were very new concepts to me. I always assumed Revelation hasn’t happened yet.

I see. Yeah. And what was the first one? So the second one was cyclical like that, actually. Oh yeah.

Spiral. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s right. So why am I saying cyclical? Why am I saying some of this stuff is already happening?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you, you don’t— I mean, you’re standing on the shoulders of others when you, you’re working on Revelation. Um, uh, and it’s the kind of thing that, you know what, somewhat— I can’t remember which commentary or whatever I read suggested the cyclical thing, but then you, you need to get into it on your own, really. And, and I was persuaded from the fact that very clearly you get these patterns where you are in the throne room I mean, I guess I’d say look at it yourselves and see if you think that’s roughly right. You do seem to start in a throne room, you do seem to then progress to something about the world in chaos, um, and then you do seem to move back to a scene of we’re all gathered now around the throne worshipping God now.

And you can spot similarities in the cycles, and you can also spot, you know, the things that are different, uh, and the progression. As to I mean, the— I think the day of God, the great day of their wrath has come, 6:17. That final paragraph of chapter 6 is quite similar to Mark— is it Mark 13? Where you get Jesus talking in very similar apocalyptic language about the time right at the end. So that sort of is a flag in the ground.

You can say, well, that’s the end. Everything that’s gonna— everything that’s happened, uh, is before that. The, the clearest one on the cycle that says Um, this is about Jesus already being— Jesus is already on the throne— is in chapter 12, the woman and the dragon, where she gives birth to a male child who’s to— uh, sorry, the— yeah, the— yes, she gives birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron. But her child was caught up to God and to his throne. So that sounds like— it sounds like a description of Jesus.

Uh, in 12:5, he’s caught up to the throne, and then you get the, the world in chaos again. So some of those flags in the ground, so some of the things in the cycle are saying, oh, it looks like Jesus is already enthroned. This bit definitely is the bit that hasn’t happened. Looks like the bit in between is the world now. Yeah, but you need— I mean, that, those, that first bit of the handout from that second session, you know, you could Spend quite a long time checking out whether you agree with that because you need to really read the whole book.

Great, thanks. Um, any other questions? Maybe I can just ask what’s up with the tribes of Israel in chapter 7. Yeah, um, yeah, so in chapter 7 you, you get the 144,000 sealed. That’s where, you know, Jehovah’s Witnesses— I don’t think they think anymore that there’s only 144,000 I think it’s that— is it that they’re the super duper believers or something like that?

The 144,000? Um, it’s— it seems to be— well, it’s either— some people think that that’s all of God’s people from original kind of Israel, as it were, historic Israel, that, that in 4 to 8 you’re getting described all those who are part of God’s elect from Israel. And then from 9 onwards, you get this great multitude from every nation. So some would say it’s a way of saying all of Israel are brought in, and then the great multitude from the nations are brought in. I’m not sure about that.

I think it could be that it’s the same crowd actually, because it’s interesting in verse 4 of chapter 7, I heard the number of the sealed. So he hears in verse 4, but he looks in verse 9. Um, and that’s a bit of a theme in Revelation. You know, he hears lion, sees lamb in another part. So he hears 144,000.

In other words, he hears the full tribes of God. But when he looks and sees, what he sees is a multitude from all the nations. So it could be that the list is also a way of describing all of God’s people. Why is it in that list? It could be teeing up the fact that in the next cycle the witnesses are described almost like an army.

But so in chapter 14, the 144,000, uh, it could be a way— and listing them like that is a way of listing armies in books like Numbers, listing, you know, them as an army. Um, uh, and why would you get them described like that before saying the great multitude? Well, it could be a way of Revelation clearly trying to tie our storey back into the storey of Israel. I mean, there’s so much Old Testament allusion in the whole berg. You know, it could just be one more thing that’s saying, hey, the God that redeemed back then is still the same God that seals.

The sealing sounds quite Exodus-ish as well. You know, he’s still redeeming his people, same God. That’s just a few thoughts. Yeah, great, thank you. I think so, yes.

Go on. You were quite happy to, like, generalise lots of the 7 churches stuff to all of us. It’s kind of 7, it’s kind of an easy number. What’s this Nicolaitan thing? They’ve got that, they had it in like Ephesus as well, I think, right?

Is it some weird 1st century Greek problem, or is that also something uniquely solved by Revelation? Rest of the imagery that we should be aware of? Um, well, it’s, it’s interesting, isn’t it, that it gets connected to, uh, what Balaam and Balak were up to, because it suggests that it might be more of a general— it’s the— it’s their recent manifestation of what seems to be a more of a historic problem for the people of God, that they’re either going to be, uh, well, the This thing about food sacrifice to idols and practising sexual immorality, um, it seems in their context to be a way of saying, well, you can— but you can worship God and worship these other gods as well, um, which is what the people of God were led into by Balaam back in Numbers. And it seems like that’s what they’re being led into in in this day in, uh, you know, in the Roman Empire. It’s interesting that when, when it comes up, you get the stuff in the— about the beast in chapter 13.

It makes it really clear there that there’s a kind of economic element to this, that you kind of bow to the beast and you, you’ll do well economically. That seems to be part of the issue for the Christians in the Roman world. And so I think general thing for us is where, where are, where are we finding those ways when we’re, where we’re encouraged to bow to the idols of the day as well as worshipping God, either for acceptance or comfort or an easier life? Yeah, great. Let’s take one more question.

Based on what’s written in the prologue, that this is revelations of Jesus Christ and that this is a prophecy, how, how little, how literally are we supposed to Yeah, yeah, that’s a really good question. So yeah, I think we need to be careful, and I think that’s why I’ll say something tomorrow about it being more like the feel of a picture than a very linear thing. So what is the tone that’s been evoked is really important, you know, what’s the big sweep of what’s going on? I think is often more helpful than dissecting the detail in that way. Yeah, I’ll say a bit more about that tomorrow.

Is it worth just saying, I mean, on the— I was chatting to a few of you earlier just saying, you know, it’s all very well to say, well, God’s— all the suffering in chapter 6 is under God’s permission, but it’s still horrible, you know. And it— I think this section itself is real about that. So the how long, Lord? I mean, that is our question, isn’t it? You know, that is very real and raw.

And the fact that God’s going to wipe away all the tears suggests, you know, that there will be a lot of tears in this era. So please don’t hear me sort of in any way saying, oh, don’t, you know, don’t feel any of that. You know, God’s— it’s all under God’s permission and it’s all going to be happy. And yet we had— I was in touch with a couple from church yesterday who’ve just had something really sad and devastating to them. And all I really, all I said really was in terms of quoting scripture to them was, how long, Lord?

And that’s what I’m praying for them today, that they’ll be able to make that their prayer, you know, how long, Lord? Because if in the darkest days you can still call him Lord, and still make your groan towards him and still be talking to him. You know, that in itself is great. And there’ll be more to pray and say, you know, in other days. But some of the Psalms, I mean, I think we need to, in a broken world, live in some of those Psalms.

Psalm 13, how long, O Lord, will you forget me forever? You know, it’s really strong complaint. Complaint is the language used in Job. Job makes his complaint. Before God?

And Job never gets told the answer. Actually, we get told that this thing was going on with God and Satan. Job doesn’t get told that. He never gets told why, but he gets told who is in charge. I think that’s the big battle for us as we journey through this world.

We won’t know why in all the detail, but we know who, and, you know, we’ve got enough to trust him. So